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TimO

Potential Expansion

100 posts in this topic

On 12/14/2017 at 1:07 PM, MacGuy said:

Glad to see the Snakes logo still active on the Forums, Baronsfan. 

It seems amazing they could host that variety of performers without beer sales. WWE? Monster trucks? Jimmy Buffet?

Still, no indication of ice-making capability though. 

I seriously doubt it.  Disney on Ice has been there but they have portable ice equipment if needed.  It’s also hard to imagine UTC would foot the bill to install permanent ice for a minor league team.  I also wander if they care renting to a professional team from any sport.  I’ve searching for pro basketball team or, particularly, indoor football that has played there... so far nothing.  It seems Chattanooga would be an idea city for inoor football and would be surprised if no one has tried place a team there.

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On 12/16/2017 at 2:19 PM, Baronsfan said:

I seriously doubt it.  Disney on Ice has been there but they have portable ice equipment if needed.  It’s also hard to imagine UTC would foot the bill to install permanent ice for a minor league team.  I also wander if they care renting to a professional team from any sport.  I’ve searching for pro basketball team or, particularly, indoor football that has played there... so far nothing.  It seems Chattanooga would be an idea city for inoor football and would be surprised if no one has tried place a team there.

From what I've found there's been exactly a half-season of indoor football in the Chattanooga area, plus a stillborn franchise. Both (would have) played at Camp Jordan Arena in East Ridge.

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To be fair to Winston-Salem..... the Annex was just to small for ECHL and it always plays second fiddle to Wake Forest sports at the LJVM.  After that, the Polar Twins started in a huge recession in the area, it was just bad timing.

The other teams were transplant teams, not marketed well, heck, I'm a hockey fan and didn't even know one of them was here until season 2.

 

Greensboro and Winston-Salem both have problems:

1) Greensboro charges for parking.  Parking fee is almost the cost of 1 ticket to a normal game.

2) Greensboro Coliseum is just too big for minor league hockey.  It is going to be heard to be profitable there unless you share the field house with the Swarm.  That might be possible, but its only 2200 seats.  I might be just slightly too small for SPHL.

3) Winston-Salem is actually having a good showing in the FHL.  3 near sellouts.  Averaging 2,200 per game.  One of the keys is, free parking at the fair grounds rather than paying at the LJVM.  I think that's been huge to get people in.  Winston is doing well enough that travel costs are more than covered to swing a profit.  Honestly, this might prove an SPHL franchise could work here.  to be honest, this FHL franchise has done more community work and and getting their name out there than the Polar Twins are Cyclones did.

Can the FHL survive?  Not sure.  Danbury left not because the FHL was bad but because of the new healthcare laws in Mass.  Sucks but that was the truth.  Watertown, Cornwall, Danville and Port Huron seem to be holding together ok.  If the core can stick it out, and Florence/Salisbury can be finalized, it might be the boost the league needs.  As a hockey fan, I am happy to have SOMETHING in the area again.

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8 minutes ago, RallyRabbit said:

... Can the FHL survive?  Not sure.  ... Watertown, Cornwall, Danville and Port Huron seem to be holding together ok. ...

I'm not so sure about the Nationals, according to this Cornwall Standard Freeholder report just after Christmas ...

Quote

The Cornwall Nationals will be without their coach for a few games.


Joel Trottier is on personal leave, and will be away from the Federal Hockey League team for a couple of weeks.


Trottier wasn’t with the team in Watertown on Boxing Day, in the Nats’ 5-3 victory against the Wolves, and he won’t be with the team when it travels to Carolina for a three-game weekend swing against the Thunderbirds.


“We’re in discussions right now as to how we’ll proceed,” said Rodney Rivette, who owns the team along with Willie Beauvais. “We’ll talk to the players and see what we’re going to do.”

That last bit doesn't ooze with confidence for the future of the team.  And the "Get Dayton Out Of The FHL" guy has claimed that Trottier left the team over not getting paid.  Smoke ... fire ... I dunno.  :dontgetit:

Meanwhile, welcome to SPHL Forums, @RallyRabbit.  Thanks for chiming in.

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11 minutes ago, JMC-STL said:

I'm not so sure about the Nationals, according to this Cornwall Standard Freeholder report just after Christmas ...

That last bit doesn't ooze with confidence for the future of the team.  And the "Get Dayton Out Of The FHL" guy has claimed that Trottier left the team over not getting paid.  Smoke ... fire ... I dunno.  :dontgetit:

Meanwhile, welcome to SPHL Forums, @RallyRabbit.  Thanks for chiming in.

Cornwall came with a coach to Winston-Salem.  I was chatting with him for a good long while and the players while the ice delay was going on.  Nothing seems wrong with that team.  But oh well, we'll see.

The FHL reminds me of where the SPHL started.  The SEHL and ACHL were basically the same types of deals.  So was the UHL.

I need this league to survive.  This is the Triad's only hope for hockey unless Winston-Salem can come up with an ownership group that will work with the SPHL, which I doubt.

I've heard that Salisbury and Florence are high probabilities.  Discussions are ongoing with Savannah, Pelham, Bloomington, Columbia and some other markets

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Welcome to the Forums, RallyRabbit.

Looking forward to more posts.

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2 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

Can the FHL survive?  Not sure.  Danbury left not because the FHL was bad but because of the new healthcare laws in Mass.  Sucks but that was the truth.  Watertown, Cornwall, Danville and Port Huron seem to be holding together ok.  If the core can stick it out, and Florence/Salisbury can be finalized, it might be the boost the league needs.  As a hockey fan, I am happy to have SOMETHING in the area again.

No, Danbury, which is in Connecticut, an entirely separate state from Massachusetts,  saw its FHL franchise fold because of the cost of insuring its players, who are employees, and are treated as such under labor laws. Players deserve to be covered adequately if they are injured at work, just like the rest of us.

http://www.newstimes.com/news/article/Danbury-Titans-close-down-after-two-seasons-11727860.php

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6 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

To be fair to Winston-Salem..... the Annex was just to small for ECHL and it always plays second fiddle to Wake Forest sports at the LJVM.  After that, the Polar Twins started in a huge recession in the area, it was just bad timing.

The other teams were transplant teams, not marketed well, heck, I'm a hockey fan and didn't even know one of them was here until season 2.

 

Greensboro and Winston-Salem both have problems:

1) Greensboro charges for parking.  Parking fee is almost the cost of 1 ticket to a normal game.

2) Greensboro Coliseum is just too big for minor league hockey.  It is going to be heard to be profitable there unless you share the field house with the Swarm.  That might be possible, but its only 2200 seats.  I might be just slightly too small for SPHL.

3) Winston-Salem is actually having a good showing in the FHL.  3 near sellouts.  Averaging 2,200 per game.  One of the keys is, free parking at the fair grounds rather than paying at the LJVM.  I think that's been huge to get people in.  Winston is doing well enough that travel costs are more than covered to swing a profit.  Honestly, this might prove an SPHL franchise could work here.  to be honest, this FHL franchise has done more community work and and getting their name out there than the Polar Twins are Cyclones did.

Can the FHL survive?  Not sure.  Danbury left not because the FHL was bad but because of the new healthcare laws in Mass.  Sucks but that was the truth.  Watertown, Cornwall, Danville and Port Huron seem to be holding together ok.  If the core can stick it out, and Florence/Salisbury can be finalized, it might be the boost the league needs.  As a hockey fan, I am happy to have SOMETHING in the area again.

I will correct you on one key aspect. I am originally from the Gate City, born and raised. I was born at Moses H. Cone Memorial Hospital in Greensboro. The Monarchs were my past time growing up. Our hockey was very successful. Hockey cannot return to Greensboro for 2 reasons, Matt Brown, Executive Director of the GCC and Scott Johnson, his second in command minion. They do not want hockey back, especially in the arena to compete and conflict with the Spartans basketball.

The "fieldhouse" is a renovated agricultural pavilion. It has no ice making capabilities. As far as parking, majority of most sporting events you go to, they charge for parking.

One question, what is the Florence in which you speak? Would that be a reference to South Carolina, because if so, then that's a never going to happen. There have been efforts and nothing will come of any of them.

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5 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

I will correct you on one key aspect. I am originally from the Gate City, born and raised. I was born at Moses H. Cone Memorial Hospital in Greensboro. The Monarchs were my past time growing up. Our hockey was very successful. Hockey cannot return to Greensboro for 2 reasons, Matt Brown, Executive Director of the GCC and Scott Johnson, his second in command minion. They do not want hockey back, especially in the arena to compete and conflict with the Spartans basketball.

The "fieldhouse" is a renovated agricultural pavilion. It has no ice making capabilities. As far as parking, majority of most sporting events you go to, they charge for parking.

One question, what is the Florence in which you speak? Would that be a reference to South Carolina, because if so, then that's a never going to happen. There have been efforts and nothing will come of any of them.

I was born and raised in High Point.  I grew up with Thunderbirds when we could afford to go and favored the Monarchs in High School and College.  I also had family members in both print and television media, so I was able to get more information than what the public was given.

Right 100%, Matt Brown is one of the biggest problems for Greensboro hockey.  I have no idea what his real handgup is, I never got a full answer from Bill Black when I bought shares of the Generals.  But he's a problem.  But the real problem is the simple Coliseum size and parking fees.  The Coliseum is too large to support a private club unless they are pulling in massive fans.  $10-20 parking fees are a hindrance.   UNCG gets a special rate for coliseum use, no parking fees and they use UNCG parking lots for the event for normal games.   If UNCG is considered the major tenant at lower lease, no parking fees and averaging 1800 per game normally to 3000 on a good year in a facility this size, then Matt Brown has sold the area out.

The Fieldhouse has no ice making facility sure, but how hard would it be to transfer this from the Coliseum to Fieldhouse (and would it be worth it not to get the ice shows).  I can see Matt Brown's answer to this already.   The man makes over $250k per year, has no major tenant in one of the biggest facilities in the country.  He lacks major concerts.  The circus is gone.  What does this guy do?

Back to the Generals.  As Bill Black stated before, lease for a minor league franchise is just too high at the coliseum.  The improvements for the ACC tournament and Hurricanes killed the place for use to the general public.  So to put a team there means raising ticket prices a bit; but that with $10-20 for parking.  It is ridiculous.  I can tell you, from a person that was also a season ticket holder, I had a hard time getting friends to come just for the parking fee alone.

Now to WInston-Salem.  The two questions are: 1) Can the FHL survive and 2) Can Winston-Salem work in the SPHL with a 3500 seat arena?  Winston-Salem has better attendance now for two reasons in my opinion: Free Parking and Cheaper Tickets (Range from $18 on gall, $12 in the first rows, $10 in middle, $8 on sides).  It is really in the minor league baseball pricepoint.  Can the FHL survive, that's another question.  Can Winston-Salem survive in SPHL if they had a chance?  They have marketed themselves well, they have a well known name again.  People are showing up in good numbers.  How much would ticket prices have to increase at 1,800 to 3000 fans per game?

As for Florence.  I have been in touch with potential owners.  The civic center will do it, dates are the things that kept it from happening this year in the FHL.

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6 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

Now to Winston-Salem.  The two questions are: 1) Can the FHL survive and 2) Can Winston-Salem work in the SPHL with a 3500 seat arena?  Winston-Salem has better attendance now for two reasons in my opinion: Free Parking and Cheaper Tickets (Range from $18 on gall, $12 in the first rows, $10 in middle, $8 on sides).  It is really in the minor league baseball pricepoint.  Can the FHL survive, that's another question.  Can Winston-Salem survive in SPHL if they had a chance?  They have marketed themselves well, they have a well known name again.  People are showing up in good numbers.  How much would ticket prices have to increase at 1,800 to 3000 fans per game?

As for Florence.  I have been in touch with potential owners.  The civic center will do it, dates are the things that kept it from happening this year in the FHL.

They had a team in the SP before....didnt last long, but hope they get another chance. I'm not setting my hopes to high.....

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19 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

I was born and raised in High Point.  I grew up with Thunderbirds when we could afford to go and favored the Monarchs in High School and College.  I also had family members in both print and television media, so I was able to get more information than what the public was given.

Right 100%, Matt Brown is one of the biggest problems for Greensboro hockey.  I have no idea what his real handgup is, I never got a full answer from Bill Black when I bought shares of the Generals.  But he's a problem.  But the real problem is the simple Coliseum size and parking fees.  The Coliseum is too large to support a private club unless they are pulling in massive fans.  $10-20 parking fees are a hindrance.   UNCG gets a special rate for coliseum use, no parking fees and they use UNCG parking lots for the event for normal games.   If UNCG is considered the major tenant at lower lease, no parking fees and averaging 1800 per game normally to 3000 on a good year in a facility this size, then Matt Brown has sold the area out.

The Fieldhouse has no ice making facility sure, but how hard would it be to transfer this from the Coliseum to Fieldhouse (and would it be worth it not to get the ice shows).  I can see Matt Brown's answer to this already.   The man makes over $250k per year, has no major tenant in one of the biggest facilities in the country.  He lacks major concerts.  The circus is gone.  What does this guy do?

Back to the Generals.  As Bill Black stated before, lease for a minor league franchise is just too high at the coliseum.  The improvements for the ACC tournament and Hurricanes killed the place for use to the general public.  So to put a team there means raising ticket prices a bit; but that with $10-20 for parking.  It is ridiculous.  I can tell you, from a person that was also a season ticket holder, I had a hard time getting friends to come just for the parking fee alone.

Now to WInston-Salem.  The two questions are: 1) Can the FHL survive and 2) Can Winston-Salem work in the SPHL with a 3500 seat arena?  Winston-Salem has better attendance now for two reasons in my opinion: Free Parking and Cheaper Tickets (Range from $18 on gall, $12 in the first rows, $10 in middle, $8 on sides).  It is really in the minor league baseball pricepoint.  Can the FHL survive, that's another question.  Can Winston-Salem survive in SPHL if they had a chance?  They have marketed themselves well, they have a well known name again.  People are showing up in good numbers.  How much would ticket prices have to increase at 1,800 to 3000 fans per game?

As for Florence.  I have been in touch with potential owners.  The civic center will do it, dates are the things that kept it from happening this year in the FHL.

To answer your question about what Matt does, absolutely being a :censore:. The man is an egotistical and arrogant jerk. He thinks he is this and that yet he is just an absolute idiot. They doled out all that money to renovate for a low level D-I school that doesn't do anything (btw go Spartans).

To transfer the ice plant to the fieldhouse would be a lot of man power and money. They won't dedicate the time and effort to relocate the chiller to the fieldhouse, or even tear up the floor to run piping for a new ice plant, or even install a permanent or portable ice plant. Matt , in my opinion, is very dead set against having hockey back, yet we get our third indoor football team when the previous two attempts failed.

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8 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

To answer your question about what Matt does, absolutely being a :censore:. The man is an egotistical and arrogant jerk. He thinks he is this and that yet he is just an absolute idiot. They doled out all that money to renovate for a low level D-I school that doesn't do anything (btw go Spartans).

To transfer the ice plant to the fieldhouse would be a lot of man power and money. They won't dedicate the time and effort to relocate the chiller to the fieldhouse, or even tear up the floor to run piping for a new ice plant, or even install a permanent or portable ice plant. Matt , in my opinion, is very dead set against having hockey back, yet we get our third indoor football team when the previous two attempts failed.

Several years ago I asked the then-manager at Huntington’s arena about that. Quite simply, the cost to set up for indoor football is WAY cheaper. Low five-figures for turf, a couple hundred dollars for PVC goalposts, plus associated paintjobs. Easy setup, easy upkeep, as long as the bills are getting paid the arena’s just fine with it.

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54 minutes ago, Aceface905 said:

Several years ago I asked the then-manager at Huntington’s arena about that. Quite simply, the cost to set up for indoor football is WAY cheaper. Low five-figures for turf, a couple hundred dollars for PVC goalposts, plus associated paintjobs. Easy setup, easy upkeep, as long as the bills are getting paid the arena’s just fine with it.

But this is our indoor football history.

Greensboro Prowlers - 2000-2003

Greensboro Revolution - 2006-2007

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11 minutes ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

But this is our indoor football history.

Greensboro Prowlers - 2000-2003

Greensboro Revolution - 2006-2007

Sounds like Huntington: Locomotives 2001, Heroes 2006-08, Hammer 2011. Meanwhile there's a not-insignificant leak somewhere in the cooling system that would have to be fixed before they got the ice running in the Arena again :\ last couple managers have been just fine with it as chiefly a concert venue...

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

But this is our indoor football history.

Greensboro Prowlers - 2000-2003

Greensboro Revolution - 2006-2007

It may be cheaper upkeep overall, but it simple is not going to make money for owners.

Back to my question, and I mean serious question to everyone.  If Winston-Salem can average 75% capacity or greater in a 3500 seat arena.  Would that make it in the SPHL?  I am being serious.

Yes yes, I know that they had two changes:

1) Polar Twins - Came at the death of the Greensboro Generals (same year hockey died in Roanoke).  Not well known that we had a team.  Formed at the start of the recession on start of the job crash in the area.  Notice that Asheville and Macon died that same year.

2) Cyclones - Florence transplant.  No one knew they were here (again huge hockey fan here, and I had no clue they were here).  No marketing, no outreach, no deals, no .... gosh its hard to find even ebay merchandise.   You can find stuff for nearly every other team then this one.

3) Forget the SEHL club, they basically moved to SPHL.

4) The IceHawks of the UHL was stupidly poor timing and a dumb ownership move, competition with the Hurricanes in the Greensboro Coliseum.  Considering the silly ticket deals the Canes ran, no one went to the UHL games.

 

Thunderbirds - Why are they different?

1) Community outreach has gotten their name out there

2) Minor League baseball prices that locals are willing to pay.

3) Hurricanes tickets have risen to crazy levels, people in Greensboro now not willing to support like they were, but re driving to Winston-Salem

4) Locals (not just transplants) are supporting this team.

5) No more competition with LJVM.  This city is interested in a tenant for the Annex.  Businesses are willing to back it.\

6) There is no more competition from Greensboro on the Horizon.  The "money" in the Triad has shifted to the North High Point, Kernersville, Oak Ridge areas, now closer to Winston.

 

Could a look at Johnstown, Cornwall, Danville, Port Huron, Danbury, and Winston-Salem to the SPHL be worth a look under different ownership?  They are all not just FHL franchises, and cities, but they are UHL cities too.  

Edited by RallyRabbit

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

But this is our indoor football history.

Greensboro Prowlers - 2000-2003

Greensboro Revolution - 2006-2007

Carolina Cobras debuting in the National Arena League in 2018 at the Greensboro Coliseum. https://www.facebook.com/CARCOBRAS/?ref=br_rs  

Edited by ChompNation
Error spelling

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1 hour ago, RallyRabbit said:

Back to my question, and I mean serious question to everyone.  If Winston-Salem can average 75% capacity or greater in a 3500 seat arena.  Would that make it in the SPHL?  I am being serious.

Its a little hard to tell any of that.  To many different factors to figure in and not much data from previous owners to know if anyone is making money and if so how much.  How much they charge for tickets?  Charge for parking?  What are the conditions of the lease they sign?  How much % of concessions will the team get?  Then you got housing costs and paying for players salary and insurance.  Somebody might have more info then me on the subject but i'll post what ive noticed about the cost of running a team.  Only from the Columbus Cottonmouths.  The only team thats folded since my Roanoke team entered the league.  But like I said its no details on everything i mentioned. Just how much the owner said she lost over the years and ill post their attendances.

Cottonmouths Article

Cottonmouths Attendance Graph

 

1 hour ago, RallyRabbit said:

Could a look at Johnstown, Cornwall, Danville, Port Huron, Danbury, and Winston-Salem to the SPHL be worth a look under different ownership?  They are all not just FHL franchises, and cities, but they are UHL cities too.  

Other than Winston-Salem, I believe the rest of the cities are too far to the north for the SPHL to put anymore strain on the teams for travel and costs.  Especially for the teams in the deep south.  They will have a better shot going back to the UHL 2.0 or FHL 2.0, whatever they are calling it.  Any new news has been spotty for months.

Link To New UHL Thread

 

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Just noticed the UHL website says its down for being under construction.  Maybe they are going to finally give some big information on the league or just a smokescreen to say we have no clue what we are doing and nothing to tell anyone?

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1 minute ago, Greg81102 said:

Just noticed the UHL website says its down for being under construction.  Maybe they are going to finally give some big information on the league or just a smokescreen to say we have no clue what we are doing and nothing to tell anyone?

Or maybe they were getting so much traffic from skeptical hockey fans that they're having to upgrade.  :disgust:

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2 hours ago, ChompNation said:

Carolina Cobras debuting in the National Arena League in 2018 at the Greensboro Coliseum. https://www.facebook.com/CARCOBRAS/?ref=br_rs  

Yes I know this, and it will fail. The reason for mentioning the Revs and Prowlers were to show we tried twice with indoor football and it failed each time. Whereas, hockey in Greensboro, was much more successful. We still hold the all-time single game attendance record for the 24th year straight.

4 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

It may be cheaper upkeep overall, but it simple is not going to make money for owners.

Back to my question, and I mean serious question to everyone.  If Winston-Salem can average 75% capacity or greater in a 3500 seat arena.  Would that make it in the SPHL?  I am being serious.

Yes yes, I know that they had two changes:

1) Polar Twins - Came at the death of the Greensboro Generals (same year hockey died in Roanoke).  Not well known that we had a team.  Formed at the start of the recession on start of the job crash in the area.  Notice that Asheville and Macon died that same year.

2) Cyclones - Florence transplant.  No one knew they were here (again huge hockey fan here, and I had no clue they were here).  No marketing, no outreach, no deals, no .... gosh its hard to find even ebay merchandise.   You can find stuff for nearly every other team then this one.

3) Forget the SEHL club, they basically moved to SPHL.

4) The IceHawks of the UHL was stupidly poor timing and a dumb ownership move, competition with the Hurricanes in the Greensboro Coliseum.  Considering the silly ticket deals the Canes ran, no one went to the UHL games.

 

Thunderbirds - Why are they different?

1) Community outreach has gotten their name out there

2) Minor League baseball prices that locals are willing to pay.

3) Hurricanes tickets have risen to crazy levels, people in Greensboro now not willing to support like they were, but re driving to Winston-Salem

4) Locals (not just transplants) are supporting this team.

5) No more competition with LJVM.  This city is interested in a tenant for the Annex.  Businesses are willing to back it.\

6) There is no more competition from Greensboro on the Horizon.  The "money" in the Triad has shifted to the North High Point, Kernersville, Oak Ridge areas, now closer to Winston.

 

Could a look at Johnstown, Cornwall, Danville, Port Huron, Danbury, and Winston-Salem to the SPHL be worth a look under different ownership?  They are all not just FHL franchises, and cities, but they are UHL cities too.  

No one in Greensboro supported the Hurricanes due to the fact they were leaving for Raleigh. Also, LJVM is NOT owned by the City of W-S. It is owned by Wake Forest University, the entire grounds.

Minor league baseball prices that you say, will be the death of a hockey team. I am going to break this down for as simple as possible.

The Southern Professional Hockey league is an independent professional hockey league, which is NO affiliation with parent organizations. The teams are responsible for paying every bill associated with operations. The average cost for an SPHL franchise is in the ballpark of $900,000 to $1,200,000 per year.

Even at the T-Birds average attendance, what the FHL site lists as 2,201 per game, puts them near to last place in between the Mississippi RiverKings and Macon Mayhem (former Twin city Cyclones).

Let's say that the T-Birds are able to garner around $250,000 corporate deals for an SPHL franchise, that leaves a possible $950,000 in expenses left to be paid. At the current attendance rate, that would create the following formula:

(Operating Costs - Revenue) / No. of Games / Average Attendance = x (where x will be your average ticket price)

(1,200,000 - 250,000) / 28 / 2201 = ??
(950,000) / 28 / 2201 = ??
33,929 (rounded up to nearest dollar) / 2201 = ??
The end result would need to be an average ticket price of $15 per game.

So the T-Bird's average ticket price of $11.00 would actually mean they lose money. The $15 per ticket is to set your break-even margin and an idea for your balance sheets whether you see a red line (bad) or a black line.

Some teams do not earn a commission on suites, parking, concessions, etc. due to arena management being greedy and stingy. Also remember, the $1,200,000 is total costs for all 56 games, which need to be offset by home revenue.

Corporate sponsorships and season ticket revenue is usually used to help offset some extra needed startup costs, or usually, in majority of cases, placed in escrows to keep funds safe should something fall through and a franchise not be granted or even see the light of day.

Arenas should be charged according to size. For example, if say the Greensboro Coliseum wants to charge $25,000 per night (to include all staffing fees), then one would assume that they should be granted use of whole building rather than just the lower seating bowl.

Edit: Minor league baseball teams DO NOT pay their players. I forgot to mention this little tidbit of information. All parent MLB clubs are responsible for scouting, signing and paying players within their organization. They have two separate payrolls, their 40-man roster payroll which includes the 15 players on their Triple-A farm clubs, then their minor league payroll, which is the remaining players that are distributed among the levels of MiLB. Not to mention, most minor league organizations also receive a stipend from parent clubs to help with costs.

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21 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

Yes I know this, and it will fail. The reason for mentioning the Revs and Prowlers were to show we tried twice with indoor football and it failed each time. Whereas, hockey in Greensboro, was much more successful. We still hold the all-time single game attendance record for the 24th year straight.

No one in Greensboro supported the Hurricanes due to the fact they were leaving for Raleigh. Also, LJVM is NOT owned by the City of W-S. It is owned by Wake Forest University, the entire grounds.

Minor league baseball prices that you say, will be the death of a hockey team. I am going to break this down for as simple as possible.

The Southern Professional Hockey league is an independent professional hockey league, which is NO affiliation with parent organizations. The teams are responsible for paying every bill associated with operations. The average cost for an SPHL franchise is in the ballpark of $900,000 to $1,200,000 per year.

Even at the T-Birds average attendance, what the FHL site lists as 2,201 per game, puts them near to last place in between the Mississippi RiverKings and Macon Mayhem (former Twin city Cyclones).

Let's say that the T-Birds are able to garner around $250,000 corporate deals for an SPHL franchise, that leaves a possible $950,000 in expenses left to be paid. At the current attendance rate, that would create the following formula:

(Operating Costs - Revenue) / No. of Games / Average Attendance = x (where x will be your average ticket price)

(1,200,000 - 250,000) / 28 / 2201 = ??
(950,000) / 28 / 2201 = ??
33,929 (rounded up to nearest dollar) / 2201 = ??
The end result would need to be an average ticket price of $15 per game.

So the T-Bird's average ticket price of $11.00 would actually mean they lose money. The $15 per ticket is to set your break-even margin and an idea for your balance sheets whether you see a red line (bad) or a black line.

Some teams do not earn a commission on suites, parking, concessions, etc. due to arena management being greedy and stingy. Also remember, the $1,200,000 is total costs for all 56 games, which need to be offset by home revenue.

Corporate sponsorships and season ticket revenue is usually used to help offset some extra needed startup costs, or usually, in majority of cases, placed in escrows to keep funds safe should something fall through and a franchise not be granted or even see the light of day.

Arenas should be charged according to size. For example, if say the Greensboro Coliseum wants to charge $25,000 per night (to include all staffing fees), then one would assume that they should be granted use of whole building rather than just the lower seating bowl.

Edit: Minor league baseball teams DO NOT pay their players. I forgot to mention this little tidbit of information. All parent MLB clubs are responsible for scouting, signing and paying players within their organization. They have two separate payrolls, their 40-man roster payroll which includes the 15 players on their Triple-A farm clubs, then their minor league payroll, which is the remaining players that are distributed among the levels of MiLB. Not to mention, most minor league organizations also receive a stipend from parent clubs to help with costs.

Yes, I know that LJVM is owned by Wake Forest.  The point was that there is no competition for trying to get events into both arenas.  WFU has the Joel, which means that Winston-Salem solely needs to focus on the Annex.  So, the city has a vested interest in seeing the Annex work out because instead of it being an afterthought, it is now their only arena.

You can't say no one supported the Hurricanes locally, it simply is not true.  There was a core of fans that did, in the ECHL fan size area of size.  I'm local and had season tickets.  A fair number of us did.  What stunk was not making the Hurricanes bring AHL hockey back and make them an affiliate in the contract to move them.  That was a mistake on the Coliseum and local ownership group.  The community paid in the long run thinking the Hurricanes were going to thank Greensboro in the long run.  It cost us in the end.

With that said, thanks for actually breaking down the numbers.  That is actually helpful.  And I understand the difference between Minor League baseball and Independent baseball.  I'm also involved with the independent baseball group pulling in an Atlantic League team to High Point.  I understand independent operation and the comparison between a parent club subsidizing the operation.

Another reason Greensboro Coliseum sucks, have you seen their stupid requirements for concessions.  The Coliseum gets most if not all concession sales.  In the Annex deal right now, the organization is paying the arena fee, but the club is getting the concession profits; offset with volunteers getting a part of donations for sales or cost of staffing.  The annex is much more attractive right now.

Overall, attendance is an awesome thing to have.  What really matters is a business strategy that is profitable.  Maybe the Annex can work now, despite being in the lower part of SPHL attendance.

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2 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

Yes, I know that LJVM is owned by Wake Forest.  The point was that there is no competition for trying to get events into both arenas.  WFU has the Joel, which means that Winston-Salem solely needs to focus on the Annex.  So, the city has a vested interest in seeing the Annex work out because instead of it being an afterthought, it is now their only arena.

You can't say no one supported the Hurricanes locally, it simply is not true.  There was a core of fans that did, in the ECHL fan size area of size.  I'm local and had season tickets.  A fair number of us did.  What stunk was not making the Hurricanes bring AHL hockey back and make them an affiliate in the contract to move them.  That was a mistake on the Coliseum and local ownership group.  The community paid in the long run thinking the Hurricanes were going to thank Greensboro in the long run.  It cost us in the end.

With that said, thanks for actually breaking down the numbers.  That is actually helpful.  And I understand the difference between Minor League baseball and Independent baseball.  I'm also involved with the independent baseball group pulling in an Atlantic League team to High Point.  I understand independent operation and the comparison between a parent club subsidizing the operation.

Another reason Greensboro Coliseum sucks, have you seen their stupid requirements for concessions.  The Coliseum gets most if not all concession sales.  In the Annex deal right now, the organization is paying the arena fee, but the club is getting the concession profits; offset with volunteers getting a part of donations for sales or cost of staffing.  The annex is much more attractive right now.

Overall, attendance is an awesome thing to have.  What really matters is a business strategy that is profitable.  Maybe the Annex can work now, despite being in the lower part of SPHL attendance.

If so many supported the Canes in Greensboro, why was the upper level curtained off and the Canes were dead last for 2 years in attendance.

In 1997-98: 9,106
In 1998-99: 8,187

Anyone can make a business strategy that is profitable, the problem is, nothing always goes to 100%. The history of hockey in Winston-Salem has always been awful. The T-Birds trying to make a case with a measly 2,000 per game is not a sufficient argument. The FHL is around $500,000 OC's, compared to $1,200,000. The FHL is a joke, and reminds me of the Pecos League and Continental Baseball League's.

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I dint think WS would be considered by the SPHL unless something dramatic changes.  I think the previous team likely poisoned that possibility.

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16 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

If so many supported the Canes in Greensboro, why was the upper level curtained off and the Canes were dead last for 2 years in attendance.

In 1997-98: 9,106
In 1998-99: 8,187

Anyone can make a business strategy that is profitable, the problem is, nothing always goes to 100%. The history of hockey in Winston-Salem has always been awful. The T-Birds trying to make a case with a measly 2,000 per game is not a sufficient argument. The FHL is around $500,000 OC's, compared to $1,200,000. The FHL is a joke, and reminds me of the Pecos League and Continental Baseball League's.

Dude, 8k-9k fans is support.  For a dead team that the locals didn't want to support and Raleigh didn't support.  That's really more than should have been there.

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6 hours ago, RallyRabbit said:

Dude, 8k-9k fans is support.  For a dead team that the locals didn't want to support and Raleigh didn't support.  That's really more than should have been there.

Actually, it is not. And I have read and even heard from some that a lot of tickets were actually freebies.

Greensboro itself was not going to support the team that basically said F you as they bolted to Raleigh, a city by the way, had no arena like ours. They had Dorton Arena.

I also read that Raleigh folks were not going to drive to the Boro for games, so 8-9k per game in the NHL is garbage.

Now this is the last thing I’m posting as far as this convo goes because it would be easier getting a root canal with no novicane, but just because you bought season tickets or supported them, that’s fine and you’re perogative. No one faults you for that. But the Canes left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of people.

On a personal side note, the Canes suck and need to go back where they came from. Back to Hartford!

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