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SJSharkies4ever

Expansion discussion from: GDT: 11/11/2017 - Bulls at Mayhem thread

40 posts in this topic

It will take more than offense to get that first win. Defense needs some help as well. Anyone can argue all they wish, but with my 27 years of knowledge and experience with hockey, 5-1 is not a solid defense. A defense is a goalies front lines to lighten his workload.

Let me break it down:

Oct. 21: @ MRK (Lost 3-1) -- Out shot 35-22 (Note: 28 PIMs versus 8 by MRK)
Oct. 27: @ PEO (Lost 5-2) -- Out shot 40-21 (17 PIMs)
Oct. 28: @ PEO (Lost 3-1) -- Out shot 30-16 (35 PIMs)
Nov. 03: KNX (Lost 2-1) -- Out shot 38-30 (34 PIMs) -- Best game of year by far
Nov. 10: HSV (Lost 4-0) -- Out shot 35-26 (17 PIMs) -- A little better
Nov. 11: @ MAC (Lost 5-1) -- Out shot 44-18 (33 PIMs)

What does this tell me statistically speaking? Mathematics and metrics tell a lot people.

A defense that is allowing on average 37 shots per game, is not a solid defense and is making the goalies job a lot harder than it already is.

BULLS CATEGORY
6 GOALS FOR
1.0 GF/GM
22 GOALS AGAINST
3.7 GA/GM
133 SHOTS FOR
22.2 SF/GM
222 SHOTS AGAINST
37.0 SA/GM
164 PIMS
27.3 PIMS/GM

These numbers are terrible for just 11% of the season completed.

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The post above hits the nail on the head. Methinks Jamey may be in a little over his head too. Art may have hired the wrong former Bull when there was one available with a much more substantial coaching resume. 

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12 hours ago, Carlos Danger said:

The post above hits the nail on the head. Methinks Jamey may be in a little over his head too. Art may have hired the wrong former Bull when there was one available with a much more substantial coaching resume. 

Sad part is, the Expected Win-Loss ratio has them to be 1-5-0.

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On 11/14/2017 at 11:39 AM, Carlos Danger said:

The post above hits the nail on the head. Methinks Jamey may be in a little over his head too. Art may have hired the wrong former Bull when there was one available with a much more substantial coaching resume. 

I think 6 games into your inaugural season is awfully early to be deciding whether or not the coach is up to the job.

Evansville went 11 games last year before our first win, and that was against the other expansion team Roanoke. It was a slog. :banghead:

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On 11/15/2017 at 4:53 PM, ShaunS said:

I think 6 games into your inaugural season is awfully early to be deciding whether or not the coach is up to the job.

Evansville went 11 games last year before our first win, and that was against the other expansion team Roanoke. It was a slog. :banghead:

And here is my question, how did Evansville's season turn out?

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1 hour ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

And here is my question, how did Evansville's season turn out?

Same place as Roanoke 9 and 10th place.  They were both expansion teams. Give them time.  You cant base a brand new coach and team off a few games.  Give the guy a chance to make improvements with his system and team before completely throwing him under the bus.

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1 minute ago, Greg81102 said:

 

Same place as Roanoke 9 and 10th place.  They were both expansion teams. Give them time.  You cant base a brand new coach and team off a few games.  Give the guy a chance to make improvements with his system and team before completely throwing him under the bus.

I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. I merely only posted statistics that say the Bulls are going to have a nasty season that will be horrible. I was also merely pointing out that people saying the Bulls need offense need to look at the horrible defense as well. 6 goals in 6 games is off to a horrible start.

And, mathematically speaking, you can base a lot of a coach and team off a few games when looking at the statistics. Plus, if I am not mistaken, the Dawgs forum is showing a lot of discord for your current coach, am I right?

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3 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

I'm not throwing anyone under the bus. I merely only posted statistics that say the Bulls are going to have a nasty season that will be horrible. I was also merely pointing out that people saying the Bulls need offense need to look at the horrible defense as well. 6 goals in 6 games is off to a horrible start.

And, mathematically speaking, you can base a lot of a coach and team off a few games when looking at the statistics. Plus, if I am not mistaken, the Dawgs forum is showing a lot of discord for your current coach, am I right?

Yeah but he has had over a year to figure out what he is doing.  So far this year the same problem is still going on until last nights game.  Getting creamed in shots on goal by huge margins, which are ending in mostly one sided games.  Over half the teams players have been in his system for a year and 7 games.  He has no excuses now to still be having these same defensive problems.  We didnt have a good year just like Evansville last year but nobody was already bitching about our rookie coach.  Look at our shots on goal this season compared to the other teams.  Its probably just as bad as Birmingham.  I know we are leading the league with allowing 42 shots a game.  If i remember earlier you were saying the coach might be in over his head.  Might not be throwing him under a bus.  Just maybe a Volkswagen Beetle. It might be true but all im saying its to early for all of that.  Give them some time.  We had our best game of the season last night.  Hopefully we can keep it up.  But keep your heads up Birmingham and hopefully you can turn things around and start competing better and get some wins.  But looking at the history of expansion teams it hasnt been very good for most of us.

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12 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

And here is my question, how did Evansville's season turn out?

While my original response was to the other poster, this underscores the point I'm making. Are expectations set correctly for an expansion team?

 

10 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

And, mathematically speaking, you can base a lot of a coach and team off a few games when looking at the statistics.

Well, we're going to disagree on this point. What you're doing is using statistics to make analytical decisions. I don't question the numbers, I question the analytics. You're comparing a new team's stats against established ones, and your greater hockey experience which will be almost entirely experienced teams. You can forecast with accuracy if your data is relevant and accurate, but I don't think it's reasonable to judge a coach's ability after the first few games of an expansion team because the results are poor compared to more experienced teams.

Take the last 9 NHL expansion teams: 0 finished above 500, and several were dead last in their conference. It's the nature of the game. What you want to look for is some sort of improvement. Evansville was terrible last year, but as a numbers fan myself I dug into them. There was a marked difference between the play at the end of the season and the earlier phases.

In the end, that's going to be how your season should be judged. An expansion team is never competing for the championship. It's about identifying the people/players it takes to build a solid core for the program. I understand that some people don't feel this way, but I think their optimism isn't tempered by reality. I don't even disagree that the data appears to forecast bad results (although, again caution - it's not a normal team, so comparative data is hard to come by). But let's be honest, nobody on here needed to see the game logs to tell you that the Bulls were going to be bad this year. Everybody already knew it. Because they're an expansion team.

 

Good luck with the season guys. I hope your team's able to play competitively and especially pickup some wins for the home crowd. I just encourage you to give the coach and players some time to figure things out.

 

Edit:

Quote

So far this year the same problem is still going on until last nights game...It might be true but all im saying its to early for all of that.  

Agreed, the distinction is that you are looking for the continuous improvement over time. A sample size of six games at the beginning of a hockey season isn't enough to guarantee any sort of accuracy.

Edited by ShaunS
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12 hours ago, ShaunS said:

While my original response was to the other poster, this underscores the point I'm making. Are expectations set correctly for an expansion team?

 

Well, we're going to disagree on this point. What you're doing is using statistics to make analytical decisions. I don't question the numbers, I question the analytics. You're comparing a new team's stats against established ones, and your greater hockey experience which will be almost entirely experienced teams. You can forecast with accuracy if your data is relevant and accurate, but I don't think it's reasonable to judge a coach's ability after the first few games of an expansion team because the results are poor compared to more experienced teams.

Take the last 9 NHL expansion teams: 0 finished above 500, and several were dead last in their conference. It's the nature of the game. What you want to look for is some sort of improvement. Evansville was terrible last year, but as a numbers fan myself I dug into them. There was a marked difference between the play at the end of the season and the earlier phases.

In the end, that's going to be how your season should be judged. An expansion team is never competing for the championship. It's about identifying the people/players it takes to build a solid core for the program. I understand that some people don't feel this way, but I think their optimism isn't tempered by reality. I don't even disagree that the data appears to forecast bad results (although, again caution - it's not a normal team, so comparative data is hard to come by). But let's be honest, nobody on here needed to see the game logs to tell you that the Bulls were going to be bad this year. Everybody already knew it. Because they're an expansion team.

 

Good luck with the season guys. I hope your team's able to play competitively and especially pickup some wins for the home crowd. I just encourage you to give the coach and players some time to figure things out.

 

Edit:

Agreed, the distinction is that you are looking for the continuous improvement over time. A sample size of six games at the beginning of a hockey season isn't enough to guarantee any sort of accuracy.

Okay, then let's break this down even further.

The history of the SPHL, there have been 13 expansion teams, prior to the 2017-18 season (Peoria Rivermen, Pensacola Ice Flyers, Mississippi Surge, Mississippi RiverKings, Florida Seals, Macon Mayhem, Augusta RiverHawks, Bloomington Thunder, Pee Dee Cyclones, Richmond Renegades, Louisiana IceGators, Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs and Evansville Thunderbolts).

Of those 13, not to include the Birmingham Bulls, 6 of those teams went to have very successful first years, and by saying successful, I am referring to the team finishing above .500.

The other 7, 2 had moderate success (finishing a few games difference between wins and losses) and the remaining 5 had little success.

Evansville, holds the expansion team record for the worst success in the history of the league (14 wins and 38 points), just 1 point shy of tying the Pee Dee Cyclones.

Side note, I listed Macon and Augusta as expansions because I believe the league refers to them as expansions, even though they are the same franchise that originated in Florence, SC.

46% have above average success, 15% had moderate success and the remaining 38% had poor success. If you base it off those calculations, then the majority is that more expansion teams have great success, or if you want to base it off of 46-54, then the odds are still fairly good for an SPHL expansion team to have decent success.

Since you referred to the NHL, the Vegas Golden Knights are a successful expansion team, running 2nd in the Pacific and become the first ever NHL expansion to ever win 6 of their first 7 games.

But I will say, nothing I posted was to throw the coach under the bus. I was merely analyzing the fact if the Bulls continue on their current path, their season is going to be long and miserable, and very disappointing for Bulls' fans who waited for what seemed a century for their team to be resurrected.

At least Evansville is playing decent hockey this season!

Edit:

I can break it down more like this.

4 had great success (131-70-23 .636)
4 had moderate success (101-103-20 .496)
5 had poor success (90-159-31 .377)

So, still, ultimately the odds are favorable for successful expansion teams in the SPHL, which defeats the claim that historically speaking expansion teams are not successful.

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Since you referred to the NHL, the Vegas Golden Knights are a successful expansion team, running 2nd in the Pacific and become the first ever NHL expansion to ever win 6 of their first 7 games.

Easy now, the season is only a few weeks old :)

 

Quote

But I will say, nothing I posted was to throw the coach under the bus. I was merely analyzing the fact if the Bulls continue on their current path, their season is going to be long and miserable, and very disappointing for Bulls' fans who waited for what seemed a century for their team to be resurrected.

It's a fair observation. I went too hard down the path of expansion, when I was really trying to point this out:

Quote

And, mathematically speaking, you can base a lot of a coach and team off a few games when looking at the statistics.

I don't agree with that. I especially don't with a new team, but honestly any team, in any sport, for a 3 game sample? No. Not ever going to be a reliable data set. That's what so much of sports analytics comes down to. There are such an incredible amount of variables in play that it's immensely challenging to accurately predict. Sportsbooks wouldn't exist if it was easy, right?

Quote

very disappointing for Bulls' fans who waited for what seemed a century for their team to be resurrected.

My comments were also meant to talk about this. I hope that most Bulls fans won't view a lack of winning as a huge disappointment. Look for the growth that shows your team is improving and relish your positive future to come.

 

Quote

So, still, ultimately the odds are favorable for successful expansion teams in the SPHL, which defeats the claim that historically speaking expansion teams are not successful.

I can't argue with the past, and I'm not willing to try and mine the data for some explanation that fits my narrative :P. That said, I'm still not going to expect expansion teams to perform up to the level of their competitors. They face many more challenges, and it's logical they would have less success.

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13 hours ago, ShaunS said:

Easy now, the season is only a few weeks old :)

Still may be early, but the VGK's have made NHL record books! So, that is something that can never be taken from them.

Quote

My comments were also meant to talk about this. I hope that most Bulls fans won't view a lack of winning as a huge disappointment. Look for the growth that shows your team is improving and relish your positive future to come.

Honestly, I think they will still be rooting hard for the team. It may start to get more negative in a year or two if the team continues to perform poorly, such like we are seeing in with Roanoke. The RYD fans are getting antsy and I feel for them, and agree with their concerns, no one wants to spend money to see a team lose.

Quote

I can't argue with the past, and I'm not willing to try and mine the data for some explanation that fits my narrative :P. That said, I'm still not going to expect expansion teams to perform up to the level of their competitors. They face many more challenges, and it's logical they would have less success.

Well, I had went back through the years and looked at the teams that were very successful, moderately successful and had piss poor performance.

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You also have plenty more factors that you need to add in.  Did they have a rookie coach?  How many teams folded that year to have more players to put your team together with.  Thats just a couple right off the top of my head.

 

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18 minutes ago, Greg81102 said:

You also have plenty more factors that you need to add in.  Did they have a rookie coach?  How many teams folded that year to have more players to put your team together with.  Thats just a couple right off the top of my head.

Okay, I will go year-by-year.

2004-05:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Macon Trax
Winston-Salem Polar Twins
Asheville Aces

2005-06:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (expansion) -- 32-17-7 (71 pts)
Pee Dee Cyclones (expansion) -- 16-33-7 (39 pts)
Asheville Aces (folded)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (folded)
Macon Trax (folded)

2006-07:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (folded mid-season)
Pee Dee Cyclones
Richmond Renegades (expansion) -- 27-25-4 (58 pts)

2007-08:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones (formerly Pee Dee Cyclones)

2008-09:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones
Jacksonville Barracudas (folded)

2009-10:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers (expansion) -- 25-23-8 (58 pts)
Louisiana IceGators (expansion) -- 23-31-2 (48 pts)
Mississippi Surge (expansion) -- 34-14-8 (76 pts)
Twin City Cyclones (suspended operations)
Richmond Renegades (folded)

2010-11:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks (formerly Twin City Cyclones) -- 35-21 (70 pts)

2011-12:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings (expansion) -- 25-28-3 (53 pts)

2012-13:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings

2013-14:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen (expansion) -- 30-18-8 (68 pts)
Bloomington Thunder (expansion) -- 20-33-3 (43 pts)
Augusta RiverHawks (suspended operations)

2014-15:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Mississippi Surge (folded)
Bloomington Thunder (folded)

2015-16:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem (formerly Augusta RiverHawks) -- 24-27-5 (53 pts)

2016-17:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (expansion) -- 17-30-9 (43 pts)
Evansville Thunderbolts (expansion) -- 14-32-10 (38 pts) -- lowest point total for expansion team in SPHL history
Louisiana IceGators (suspended operations/folded)

2017-18:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs
Evansville Thunderbolts
Birmingham Bulls (expansion)
Columbus Cottonmouths (folded)

As far as coaches go, you can look that up. I'm tired! LOL

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2 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

Okay, I will go year-by-year.

2004-05:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Macon Trax
Winston-Salem Polar Twins
Asheville Aces

2005-06:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (expansion) -- 32-17-7 (71 pts)
Pee Dee Cyclones (expansion) -- 16-33-7 (39 pts)
Asheville Aces (folded)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (folded)
Macon Trax (folded)

2006-07:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (folded mid-season)
Pee Dee Cyclones
Richmond Renegades (expansion) -- 27-25-4 (58 pts)

2007-08:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones (formerly Pee Dee Cyclones)

2008-09:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones
Jacksonville Barracudas (folded)

2009-10:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers (expansion) -- 25-23-8 (58 pts)
Louisiana IceGators (expansion) -- 23-31-2 (48 pts)
Mississippi Surge (expansion) -- 34-14-8 (76 pts)
Twin City Cyclones (suspended operations)
Richmond Renegades (folded)

2010-11:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks (formerly Twin City Cyclones) -- 35-21 (70 pts)

2011-12:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings (expansion) -- 25-28-3 (53 pts)

2012-13:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings

2013-14:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen (expansion) -- 30-18-8 (68 pts)
Bloomington Thunder (expansion) -- 20-33-3 (43 pts)
Augusta RiverHawks (suspended operations)

2014-15:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Mississippi Surge (folded)
Bloomington Thunder (folded)

2015-16:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem (formerly Augusta RiverHawks) -- 24-27-5 (53 pts)

2016-17:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (expansion) -- 17-30-9 (43 pts)
Evansville Thunderbolts (expansion) -- 14-32-10 (38 pts) -- lowest point total for expansion team in SPHL history
Louisiana IceGators (suspended operations/folded)

2017-18:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs
Evansville Thunderbolts
Birmingham Bulls (expansion)
Columbus Cottonmouths (folded)

As far as coaches go, you can look that up. I'm tired! LOL

Nice job.  Im tired to, but my quick lookover, i just looked at Peoria Rivermen.  The last team to finish above .500. The thing i see from them as they had an advantage because thats when they came into the league, the CHL merged and the upper leagues lost a lot of teams and players dropped down to the SPHL.   I looked at the biggest number of players that had the most games played and most of them came from the ECHL or the CHL.  By my quick lookover just at the SPHL teams throughout the years.  In early years there were 2 expansion teams that went over .500 in 2009/10.  But a big reason for that is 3 out of the 7 teams that were in the league were expansion teams.  So they obviously have a chance to win more games.  They themselves were playing a lot of other expansion teams games.  Which brings me to another question.  Not sure how long the SPHL has been doing the uneven schedules, but we hardly played Evansville at all last year.  So we never got to inflate our wins on each other.  So question would be, how many games did the expansion teams play the best teams in the league?  But this is racking my brain its so late, i might get into it deeper tomorrow.  But thanks for posting.  Its interesting stuff to look at.  To bad we cant come up with stuff like this in the offseason lol.

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10 hours ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

Okay, I will go year-by-year.

2004-05:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Macon Trax
Winston-Salem Polar Twins
Asheville Aces

2005-06:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (expansion) -- 32-17-7 (71 pts)
Pee Dee Cyclones (expansion) -- 16-33-7 (39 pts)
Asheville Aces (folded)
Winston-Salem Polar Twins (folded)
Macon Trax (folded)

2006-07:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Florida Seals (folded mid-season)
Pee Dee Cyclones
Richmond Renegades (expansion) -- 27-25-4 (58 pts)

2007-08:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Jacksonville Barracudas
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones (formerly Pee Dee Cyclones)

2008-09:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Richmond Renegades
Twin City Cyclones
Jacksonville Barracudas (folded)

2009-10:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers (expansion) -- 25-23-8 (58 pts)
Louisiana IceGators (expansion) -- 23-31-2 (48 pts)
Mississippi Surge (expansion) -- 34-14-8 (76 pts)
Twin City Cyclones (suspended operations)
Richmond Renegades (folded)

2010-11:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks (formerly Twin City Cyclones) -- 35-21 (70 pts)

2011-12:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings (expansion) -- 25-28-3 (53 pts)

2012-13:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Augusta RiverHawks
Mississippi RiverKings

2013-14:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi Surge
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen (expansion) -- 30-18-8 (68 pts)
Bloomington Thunder (expansion) -- 20-33-3 (43 pts)
Augusta RiverHawks (suspended operations)

2014-15:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Mississippi Surge (folded)
Bloomington Thunder (folded)

2015-16:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Louisiana IceGators
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem (formerly Augusta RiverHawks) -- 24-27-5 (53 pts)

2016-17:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Columbus Cottonmouths
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs (expansion) -- 17-30-9 (43 pts)
Evansville Thunderbolts (expansion) -- 14-32-10 (38 pts) -- lowest point total for expansion team in SPHL history
Louisiana IceGators (suspended operations/folded)

2017-18:
Knoxville Ice Bears
Huntsville Havoc
Fayetteville FireAntz
Pensacola Ice Flyers
Mississippi RiverKings
Peoria Rivermen
Macon Mayhem
Roanoke Rail Yard Dawgs
Evansville Thunderbolts
Birmingham Bulls (expansion)
Columbus Cottonmouths (folded)

As far as coaches go, you can look that up. I'm tired! LOL

I have just one question, teams that were formerly known as "blank" and relocated elsewhere......wouldnt they have "(expansion)" beside them.....Macon did an expansion draft when they came "back", .....I wasnt around for Pee Dee, but I'm sure they did it too.

I'm pretty sure if a new team starts up in Columbus they will have one. As well as Winston-Salem, if they are successful in what they are trying to do. 

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15 minutes ago, Marksmen3519 said:

I have just one question, teams that were former known as "blank" and relocated elsewhere......wouldnt they have "(expansion)" beside them.....Macon did an expansion draft when they came "back", .....I wasnt around for Pee Dee, but I'm sure they did it too.

I'm pretty sure if a new team starts up in Columbus they will have one. As well as Winston-Salem, if they are successful in what they are trying to do. 

Good question, maybe somebody has the answer.  My best guess is if the team sits out a year no matter who they are or were they would need an expansion draft.  None of the other players would still be available to them.  As for a team folding and immediately becoming another team, im not sure.  Has this ever happened in the SPHL?  Maybe they still have an expansion draft or just keep the rights of the previous teams players?  Where is all the old school SPHL fans to answer?

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13 hours ago, Marksmen3519 said:

I have just one question, teams that were formerly known as "blank" and relocated elsewhere......wouldnt they have "(expansion)" beside them.....Macon did an expansion draft when they came "back", .....I wasnt around for Pee Dee, but I'm sure they did it too.

I'm pretty sure if a new team starts up in Columbus they will have one. As well as Winston-Salem, if they are successful in what they are trying to do. 

Pee Dee Cyclones and Florida Seals would have participated in an expansion draft, with the folding of Asheville, Winston-Salem and Macon.

Macon Mayhem participated in an expansion draft because I believe the league would have made Bob purchase franchise rights again. Usually, operational suspensions are granted for a year and I believe he was required to turn over franchise rights to the Hawks when they disappeared.

Relocated teams are not expansion teams. Pee Dee spent 2 seasons in Florence and relocated to Winston-Salem where they played for two years before suspending operations. Same team, same franchise, owns the rights to the same players.

Any new Columbus team would be classified as an expansion. The Cottonmouths franchise rights are owned by the Birmingham Bulls. The same thing applies to the Rail Yard Dawgs. They purchased the rights of the Mississippi Surge.

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35 minutes ago, SJSharkies4ever said:

Pee Dee Cyclones and Florida Seals would have participated in an expansion draft, with the folding of Asheville, Winston-Salem and Macon.

Macon Mayhem participated in an expansion draft because I believe the league would have made Bob purchase franchise rights again. Usually, operational suspensions are granted for a year and I believe he was required to turn over franchise rights to the Hawks when they disappeared.

Relocated teams are not expansion teams. Pee Dee spent 2 seasons in Florence and relocated to Winston-Salem where they played for two years before suspending operations. Same team, same franchise, owns the rights to the same players.

Any new Columbus team would be classified as an expansion. The Cottonmouths franchise rights are owned by the Birmingham Bulls. The same thing applies to the Rail Yard Dawgs. They purchased the rights of the Mississippi Surge.

I don't remember Birmingham purchasing rights to Columbus, though they have almost all their players.

There was this article....

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/sports/other-sports/columbus-cottonmouths/article157243374.html

Which means (to the best of my knowledge) since he was shot down by the SPHL, no one owns the rights to the Columbus Cottonmouths.

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27 minutes ago, Marksmen3519 said:

I don't remember Birmingham purchasing rights to Columbus, though they have almost all their players.

There was this article....

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/sports/other-sports/columbus-cottonmouths/article157243374.html

Which means (to the best of my knowledge) since he was shot down by the SPHL, no one owns the rights to the Columbus Cottonmouths.

Reading is fundamental. '3519.  From the article you linked: "Earlier this month, (Wanda) Amos sold her franchise to the Birmingham Bulls ... ."  That should refresh your memory.

It's not stated in the Ledger article, but it's likely Wanda Amos still "owns the rights to the Columbus Cottonmouths" which at this point would be little more than a name and maybe some miscellaneous property bearing that name (e.g., merchandise).  But further from the Ledger article: "In that transaction [i.e., the franchise transfer to the Birmingham ownership group], the league gained rights to the Columbus market."  So the SPHL has the legal right to now "expand" back into the Columbus market, should it so choose and should it - or another entity who purchases that right to the market from the League - find a way to gain an agreement for an arena the new team can call home ice.  The latter is what Fidel Jenkins failed to accomplish.

Have we confused everyone sufficiently now?  :hmm:

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39 minutes ago, JMC-STL said:

Reading is fundamental. '3519.  From the article you linked: "Earlier this month, (Wanda) Amos sold her franchise to the Birmingham Bulls ... ."  That should refresh your memory.

It's not stated in the Ledger article, but it's likely Wanda Amos still "owns the rights to the Columbus Cottonmouths" which at this point would be little more than a name and maybe some miscellaneous property bearing that name (e.g., merchandise).  But further from the Ledger article: "In that transaction [i.e., the franchise transfer to the Birmingham ownership group], the league gained rights to the Columbus market."  So the SPHL has the legal right to now "expand" back into the Columbus market, should it so choose and should it - or another entity who purchases that right to the market from the League - find a way to gain an agreement for an arena the new team can call home ice.  The latter is what Fidel Jenkins failed to accomplish.

Have we confused everyone sufficiently now?  :hmm:

Thanks for clearing up. I didn't re-read the article....just knew he was denied....So since the Bulls have the rights to Cottonmouths, nothing will happen with team name or do you think they will sale so the name can be used again?

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This discussion has taken on a life of it's own. So we have split it off into it's own thread everyone is welcome to participate in.

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11 hours ago, Marksmen3519 said:

Thanks for clearing up. I didn't re-read the article....just knew he was denied....So since the Bulls have the rights to Cottonmouths, nothing will happen with team name or do you think they will sale so the name can be used again?

STILL confused, I see.  Sports franchises don't automatically come with names, they come with rights associated with business operations & financial controls (as stipulated by the League).  My best guess is that either Mrs. Amos still owns the "Columbus Cottonmouths" team name OR the League does.  Another distinct possibility is that the name was sold off to someone who speculates in such things (i.e., a third party who sees potential future monetary value in a team name that can be sold again in its original market ... or maybe in Columbus, OH).

You've now stretched my imagination to its limits on this topic.  I'll leave it to the true business folks & insiders among us to correct or amplify.  :surrender:

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3 hours ago, MacGuy said:

This discussion has taken on a life of it's own. So we have split it off into it's own thread everyone is welcome to participate in.

What a MARVELOUS stroke of Senior Moderator genius.  Double MacGuy's salary immediately, Vol'!

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